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Author Topic: An argument for Milk...  (Read 40488 times)

Offline back2basic

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 02:32:26 PM »
which makes a good point that it still contains life or energy, so the more of this we can gain in our diets we increase our own energy field/body.
 so as we have seen animals need food to start the life with, this food is given directly from the mother to the animal, where we are going wrong is thinking we can keep the energy of the directly gained product, being any thing that is alive and still having its energy field intact.
 all we need to find is food that we can feed on that has come directly from nature, if that means sucking on a teet if we are thirsty, it may be the only way we can directy digest it and have benefits from it, but i dont think id like to try sucking on one when the bulls staring at my ass!
 Eat things that grow directly from the ground, not the ones that feed from it. love life live long. peace& forgiveness. x
Lets rewind this greedy process and regain our natural mind, body, and souls! Then we can move on and respect ourselves again. love life live long. x

Offline Arnight Nomad

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2010, 04:35:39 PM »
I loosened up the restriction on dairy to then having a little bit of cheese on either a salad or a burger (protein style) but consuming milk in mass quantities never suited me.

Offline houmax

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2010, 05:29:01 PM »
I loosened up the restriction on dairy to then having a little bit of cheese on either a salad or a burger (protein style) but consuming milk in mass quantities never suited me.

I like some feta on a salad or maybe a piece of munster once in a while. I gave up milk and ice cream back in Feb.
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Offline Nilugh Brownugh

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2011, 03:43:49 AM »
Goats milk is much easier to digest than hows milk. It is much more like human milk in constitution.
Tastes a bit sour but great once used to it.
Wanting to enjoy every minute of the day is my goal.

Offline Qommon

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2011, 09:57:18 PM »
There are many common misconceptions about the role DNA plays in our lives. Someone mentioned earlier about if we have evolved over 5000+ years to consume dairy, why not grains? This is because we have NOT just evolved to consume dairy, we did that 200 million+ years ago when we became mammals. After spending several million years evolving into the top carnivore species you see today we have seperated ourselves from our rodent-like cousins, to whom a stalk full of ripe wheat berries provides a favourable calories gained/calories expended ratio. The genes responsible for digestion of lactose don't shrivel up and die when you reach toddlerhood, they simply switch off due to lack of stimulation. I would like to point out that the main reason humans stop consuming milk is not that it is bad for them, but rather the enormous strain it places on the mother. Feeding a 10 lb newborn is considerably different than feeding a 160 lb teenager. Our DNA's abilitiy to switch on and off genes is one of the driving forces behind our evolution. DNA changes quite often but these do not always translate to changes in the phenotype (the person, or plant, or dog the DNA becomes) until an environmental factor triggers them to change. Your body uses different genes to produce the same types of proteins depending on how cold it is, the altitude, etc. This is perhaps best illustrated by the evolution of the wolf into the common dog. Every genetic trait you see in any dog breed was present in the original wolf DNA. Humans have not changed their DNA in any way, we did not add anything in or take anything away, we merely brought what was already there to the surface. The implications of this are amazing (if somewhat rediculous), theoretically you could take the wild wolves of today and (over several hundred years) breed a copy of any breed you see today. Also Discovery Magazine had a cool article about a scientist who wanted to switch genes on and off in a chicken embryo to see if he could produce a dinosaur.
Interesting but perhaps I've strayed a bit off topic: Back to milk. So in my humble opinion (and in my humble opinion there is no such thing as a humble opinion) Milk was not consumed by our ancestors because it was difficult to obtain, not because of negative effects of dairy. Goat milk is better than cows, because it is more like human milk. Human milk would probably be best, except for availability (come on mom, please). Similarly raw would be better than pasturized but ultimatly what it comes down to is what works for you. If you eat cheese and then get bloated and gassy for three days, don't bother. If you find downing a litre of 30% coffee creamer after a work out helps you build muscle mass all the power to you.

PS another thing to consider when you look at current studies on dairy is where a lot of this dairy consumption is happening: cheesy pizzas, sugary cerials, chocolate milk.... The negative effects might not all be dairy related.

nero

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2011, 04:41:26 PM »
Wow, speaking of putting things into perspective...thank you Qommon.

Offline Lilnicki

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2011, 08:43:05 AM »
For me milk makes me very nauseous...... i have tried lactose free milk which helps as long as i don't have too much. I think the general gist of all these messages is have it if it doesn't make you feel ill !!

Nicki

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2011, 08:52:33 AM »
Not having read all the replies, I was understanding that humans shouldn't drink milk after six months old, due to being lactose intolerant? It's only good for babies that need easy calories, vitamins and minerals from the mother to kick start their growth.

Offline Tony Bondioli

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2011, 09:25:33 AM »
Most primates, humans included, are designed to breastfeed for the first 5 to 6 years of life.
RN, B.Sc. Health Promotion and Wellness. Public Health Nurse serving a Great Lakes Native American tribe. Husband and father. Lousy at cards, but with a fair singing voice. Good to have around when the excrement hits the rotating cooling apparatus.

"I worshipped dead men for their strength, forgetting I was strong."  (Vita Sackville-West)

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"Man fears the beast within the wolf, because he does not understand the beast within himself."  (Turtle Island Alphabet)

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Offline Qommon

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2011, 07:23:35 AM »
Exactly, when food was more scarce we had to breast feed for longer periods of time (5-6 years), but milk remains just as good for us (most of us) for our entire lives. When looking at things from a purely "Paleo" view point then you should cut out dairy because the fact is it was not a major part of his daily diet. However the reasons why milk was not consumed was because of the difficulty to obtain it. And it is true that if you cut out dairy from your diet for an extended period your body will stop producing the enzymes to break it down easily. However, people confuse the effect with the cause, your body is not producing those enzymes because it is not being stimulated to do so. Your body does the same thing with thousands of different enzymes every day, whose balance varies hourly, daily, yearly etc... It is also entirely possible to wean yourself back on to dairy after long periods of abstinence. While eating a gallon of ice cream right off the bat is probably a bad idea, but small amounts of probiotic yogurt daily and gradually increasing the amount/variety as you feel comfortable will get you body stimulated to produce its dairy enzymes again.
Personally I drink moderate amounts of goats milk because it is delicious and conveinient and I have personally never had problems with dairy in any of its forms (except quantity ;)). I am not a nutritionist or an anthropologist but it seems to me the reason Paleo man did not consume milk was its scarcity, seeing as how we are mammals I find it difficult to believe milk in and of itself does us harm.
Fire is, in its basic form, an animated chemical reaction, and a human life can be thought of similarly, for indeed fire shares a good many traits off the list which define life (it's only shortcoming to be considered 'alive' is that it is not made of cells). Fires consume fuel (food, oxygen, energy) and how well it burns depends on its fuel source (dry seasoned wood vs. cedar boughs,) and environment (adequate draught, dry ground how the fuel is arranged to burn etc.) To me, cows milk is like wet wood, in moderation it will burn on a roaring fire without too much negative effects, and you may even maintain a fire with wet wood, but it will not burn as well.
Sorry, my mind seems to be wandering all over the place this morning, I'm not sure if a point was made here.... ;D

Offline Tony Bondioli

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2011, 02:45:00 PM »
You've done a good job of making a point that I largely agree with.  Personally, I've also never had any problems with dairy products, and continue to consume them in moderation.  I believe the first time man "discovered" cheese (probably due to a slain animal's milk accidentally coming into contact with its stomach acid), it was a great boon to our species, providing a nutritionally- and calorically-dense food that was compact and resisted spoilage.  Unless one has a particular problem with digesting dairy, I see no nutritional reason to completely eliminate it from the diet.
RN, B.Sc. Health Promotion and Wellness. Public Health Nurse serving a Great Lakes Native American tribe. Husband and father. Lousy at cards, but with a fair singing voice. Good to have around when the excrement hits the rotating cooling apparatus.

"I worshipped dead men for their strength, forgetting I was strong."  (Vita Sackville-West)

“I'm not a prophet or a stone aged man, just a mortal with the potential of a superman. I'm living on.”  (David Bowie)

"Man fears the beast within the wolf, because he does not understand the beast within himself."  (Turtle Island Alphabet)

"Seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek the things they sought."  (Basho)

"[Primal man] is of the soil... he fits into the landscape, for the hand that fashioned the continent also fashioned the man for his surroundings."  (paraphrasing Luther Standing Bear)

Offline Rossy

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 01:34:51 AM »
I no nutitionalist - but what about calcium intake? is it important? don't want white blotches on my finger mails!!!

Offline Tony Bondioli

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 03:45:27 AM »
Calcium is important, and dairy is a great source of it.  For those who wish to remain paleo-correct "purists," though, green, leafy vegetables are also an excellent source of calcium.  Many types of supplements are also available.
RN, B.Sc. Health Promotion and Wellness. Public Health Nurse serving a Great Lakes Native American tribe. Husband and father. Lousy at cards, but with a fair singing voice. Good to have around when the excrement hits the rotating cooling apparatus.

"I worshipped dead men for their strength, forgetting I was strong."  (Vita Sackville-West)

“I'm not a prophet or a stone aged man, just a mortal with the potential of a superman. I'm living on.”  (David Bowie)

"Man fears the beast within the wolf, because he does not understand the beast within himself."  (Turtle Island Alphabet)

"Seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek the things they sought."  (Basho)

"[Primal man] is of the soil... he fits into the landscape, for the hand that fashioned the continent also fashioned the man for his surroundings."  (paraphrasing Luther Standing Bear)

Offline Lilnicki

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 07:36:54 AM »
A cup of cooked spinach or collard greens contains the SAME amount of calcium as milk :)

Offline Alden

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2011, 09:09:12 PM »
This one has been bothering me for a while and I'd like to discuse it. What's the deal against milk and dairy in the paleo diet?

This one always seemed a little weird/wrong to me. Why shouldn't it be included in the paleo diet? We're all mammals here and mammals are designed to feed their young milk from birth, so why wouldn't we include various kinds of milk/dairy?

here's my reasoning:
Humans were designed to breast feed. Babies are healthier and mothers lose the extra weight they gain by burning over 500 calories a day when the breastfeed. If we drink one kind of milk why not others? Goat milk is VERY close to human milk.

Even though some people are lactose intolerant, not all are. And no one says to never eat shell fish, tree nuts, or hot peppers because some people have allergies.

Dairy products don't come with the long list of reasons not to eat like grains and potatoes, and have a nutritional make-up that goes very well with the rest of the paleo diet.

Cheese has been around 5000+ years longer than wine that we know of and dairy products were a staple of many ancient peoples and tribes. The ancient celts, picts, vandals, teutonics, slavs, and goths are just some of the acient tribes that used dairy. The scythians, huns, tartars, and mongols were famous for carring hard and sweet curds as preserved foods and drinking directly from the mares they rode. Goat milk has been a staple around the world for thousands and thousands of years. Tribes in Africa still depend on it.

SO, why is dairy not on the list?

Hello dear member, I think that it's the nature rule that every one has to feed breast milk at the time of born because it's only the feed to a newly born baby which his/her stomach digest's easily. And man is also a social animal so don't say that we are feeding our kids like animal's. Just understand the nature's rule....

Offline CGAK

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2011, 01:55:10 PM »
I don't drink milk, but I do like a little cheese now and then. I have found smaller quantities of stronger tasting cheeses satisfy my needs without bothering my stomach. Sometimes we like things we shouldn't have, but having some in moderation is far better than denying yourself completely, right?!?!
*Relax*

Offline BigKhanz

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2011, 04:13:56 AM »
I see my arguments got a little attention while I was away.

I think I saw someone  mention that humans were the only species to drink other species' milk? Must have never owned a cat.
Guys like me aren't born this way, actually we're not born at all. We're hatched from vulture eggs left in the sun, then raised by Wolves...

Offline amband

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2012, 05:52:25 AM »
Quote
A study of DNA from skeletons suggest that all European adults living between 6,000 BC and 5,000 BC were lactose intolerant, backing the idea that the ability to digest milk only spread after the introduction of cattle farming in Europe in the past 9,000 years.
University College, London and Mainz University, Germany

Quote
Just 7000 years ago, Europeans were unable to digest milk, according to a new analysis of fossilised bone samples – nowadays more than 90% of this population can. Europeans must have incurred a rapid change in their genetic make-up because it held an evolutionary advantage for them to be able to digest milk, says Mark Thomas at University College London in the UK, who carried out the study with colleagues.

Lactose tolerance is absent in the Far East, present to a limited extent in India and at varying levels in Africa and even southern Europe. "It's striking, for example, that today around eighty per cent of southern Europeans cannot tolerate lactose even though the first dairy farmers in Europe probably lived in those areas. Through computer simulations and DNA testing we are beginning to get glimpses of the bigger early European picture."

Most mammals lose the ability to digest the milk sugar lactose after weaning because they no longer make lactase in their intestine. But in north west Europeans, the survival advantage of milk drinking favoured those who kept their lactase for longer in life.
Dr Mark Thomas of UCL

More here:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn11261
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v39/n1/abs/ng1946.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17159977?dopt=Abstract

All the evidence I have been exposed to suggests that dairy was not part of a paleolithic diet (pre 10,000BCE) and so, that is why dairy is not on the list.

BigKhanz, you've put forth an excellent argument - and I agree entirely, but aren't you talking about modern man (neolithic to now), as opposed to paleolithic man?

The debate about dairy consumption is definitely a contentious issue... and I'm open to new evidence.  I'm willing to change any information on the static webpages on any topic according to the collective research of the community here.  So, if you think I should change it, let me know.

We have an initial time in history given in correct terms we all understand and is used as common determination of time, namely, AD BC.  Further down, someone uses the BCE nonsense, which is not determinant of time.  Common era when..what?

Offline Jana

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Re: An argument for Milk...
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2012, 12:36:06 PM »
Why do you want to drink milk if you can't stand it? There are other foods containing proteins.
Cavewoman since March 8 2012.