An argument for Milk...

[BigKhanz]

This one has been bothering me for a while and I'd like to discuse it. What's the deal against milk and dairy in the paleo diet?

This one always seemed a little weird/wrong to me. Why shouldn't it be included in the paleo diet? We're all mammals here and mammals are designed to feed their young milk from birth, so why wouldn't we include various kinds of milk/dairy?

here's my reasoning:
Humans were designed to breast feed. Babies are healthier and mothers lose the extra weight they gain by burning over 500 calories a day when the breastfeed. If we drink one kind of milk why not others? Goat milk is VERY close to human milk.

Even though some people are lactose intolerant, not all are. And no one says to never eat shell fish, tree nuts, or hot peppers because some people have allergies.

Dairy products don't come with the long list of reasons not to eat like grains and potatoes, and have a nutritional make-up that goes very well with the rest of the paleo diet.

Cheese has been around 5000+ years longer than wine that we know of and dairy products were a staple of many ancient peoples and tribes. The ancient celts, picts, vandals, teutonics, slavs, and goths are just some of the acient tribes that used dairy. The scythians, huns, tartars, and mongols were famous for carring hard and sweet curds as preserved foods and drinking directly from the mares they rode. Goat milk has been a staple around the world for thousands and thousands of years. Tribes in Africa still depend on it.

SO, why is dairy not on the list?

[Tony Bondioli]

I agree, and have always considered milk to be appropriate "caveman" fare.  I can only imagine that primitive man, having killed a large, female mammal with a set of full udders would have relished the stuff.  And cheese?  Just add acid.  Probably a bit of stomach acid was mixed with milk--intentionally or unintentionally, at first--and the results were a form of high-energy food that lasted a long time and could be easily carried.  Perfect for the hunter-gatherer.

It does a body good.

[Phanatic]

It's pretty much the best thing to have after a workout too, with it's fast assimilating protein.

[Matt Emery]

A study of DNA from skeletons suggest that all European adults living between 6,000 BC and 5,000 BC were lactose intolerant, backing the idea that the ability to digest milk only spread after the introduction of cattle farming in Europe in the past 9,000 years.

University College, London and Mainz University, Germany

Just 7000 years ago, Europeans were unable to digest milk, according to a new analysis of fossilised bone samples – nowadays more than 90% of this population can. Europeans must have incurred a rapid change in their genetic make-up because it held an evolutionary advantage for them to be able to digest milk, says Mark Thomas at University College London in the UK, who carried out the study with colleagues.

Lactose tolerance is absent in the Far East, present to a limited extent in India and at varying levels in Africa and even southern Europe. "It's striking, for example, that today around eighty per cent of southern Europeans cannot tolerate lactose even though the first dairy farmers in Europe probably lived in those areas. Through computer simulations and DNA testing we are beginning to get glimpses of the bigger early European picture."

Most mammals lose the ability to digest the milk sugar lactose after weaning because they no longer make lactase in their intestine. But in north west Europeans, the survival advantage of milk drinking favoured those who kept their lactase for longer in life.

Dr Mark Thomas of UCL

More here:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn11261
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v39/n1/abs/ng1946.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17159977?dopt=Abstract

All the evidence I have been exposed to suggests that dairy was not part of a paleolithic diet (pre 10,000BCE) and so, that is why dairy is not on the list.

BigKhanz, you've put forth an excellent argument - and I agree entirely, but aren't you talking about modern man (neolithic to now), as opposed to paleolithic man?

The debate about dairy consumption is definitely a contentious issue... and I'm open to new evidence.  I'm willing to change any information on the static webpages on any topic according to the collective research of the community here.  So, if you think I should change it, let me know.

[BigKhanz]

aren't you talking about modern man (neolithic to now), as opposed to paleolithic man?

Very much so. I was using my historical references not in the "paleo" sense but in the "tribal". But if you look at many of the peoples that we learn from whom are closest to nature and their own biology, such as the native americans and Austronesian, they are purely neolithic or even modern tribes. I wouldn't ignore what the Comanche or Polynesians had to teach, so I will stand by my references to other neolithic tribes when it comes to this.

The normal mammalian condition is for the young of a species to experience reduced lactase production at the end of the weaning period (a species-specific length of time). In non dairy consuming societies, lactase production usually drops about 90% during the first four years of life, although the exact drop over time varies widely.[8]. The majority of the world's human population follows this trend, with the lactase producing genes largely inactivated in adulthood.[9][1]

However, certain human populations have a mutation on chromosome 2 which eliminates the shutdown in lactase production, making it possible for members of these populations to continue consumption of fresh milk and other dairy products throughout their lives without difficulty. This appears to be an evolutionarily recent adaptation to dairy consumption, and has occurred independently in both northern Europe and east Africa in populations with a historically pastoral lifestyle.[9] Lactase persistence, allowing lactose digestion to continue into adulthood, is a dominant allele, making lactose intolerance a recessive genetic trait

Wikipedia article on lactose intolerance.

The difference is in the ability of ADULTS to easily digest milk. We all start with the tolerance to lactose and slowly lose this trait. But over the last 6000-10000 yrs we have seen this change on a genetic level. As a species we are exercising are greatest strength and adapting to a very healthy group of foods. I also find it interesting that the mutation happened independently in pastoral cultures (wandering herders and shepherds) and not in cultures that actually cultivated available land.

The arguments for are the same reasonings I had before.

So far the only arguments against dairy are: 1) Paleo peoples didn't consume it and 2) Lactose intolerance.
My counter arguments to these are 1) paleo peoples also didn't bathe but that's been working out for me pretty well and 2) Humans are adapting at the genetic level to be able to continue consuming dairy throughout our adult lives and if we have the inherent genetic ability to consume a very nutritious food, then doing so is the definition of "being true to your biology"

Im really interested in hearing any other insites into this because it really has me thinking...

[Matt Emery]

Humans are adapting at the genetic level to be able to continue consuming dairy throughout our adult lives and if we have the inherent genetic ability to consume a very nutritious food, then doing so is the definition of "being true to your biology"

I totally agree.  We shouldn't ignore genetic adaptations; if we've evolved to consume milk, then it should be included as a recommended food.

The reason I left it off the list was to be on the safe side of the fence... there was conflicting evidence about milk actually being healthy for human adults, so I gave the benefit of the doubt to the caveman.  Looking on it now, I see that my decision was erroneous -  I placed too much bias on the fact that caveman didn't produce lactase (which breaks down the milk sugar lactose).

BigKhanz, you're argument for the use of milk is watertight - I would vote for putting milk on the list based on your hypothesis, and based on the fact that I have very little evidence against milk being nutritious.

I stand corrected! 

What I would also like to discuss is a pros/cons list for the consumption of milk.  But I think that is something for another thread.

Also, I have been keen on the idea of a Caveman Wiki for quite a while now - an encyclopaedia of cavemen related topics that can updated by any registered user.  Anyone in favour of it?

[BigKhanz]

What I would also like to discuss is a pros/cons list for the consumption of milk.  But I think that is something for another thread.

Im obviously for dairy, but I think before anything, a few people who have been cutting it out or are new to the diet should try including it and see how things go. Maybe like one of the food challanges. After we get a chance to hear some feedback, and most importantly you get some 1st hand knowledge, maybe we put it to a vote.  But I think we should save that until this has been looked at for a while. It's too big a divergence from every paleo site and diet I've seen to be taken lightly. I think eventually dairy will be included with restrictions.

I stand corrected!   

No, you just learned something new. There is no "correct" or "incorrect", and everything is open to debate. I know I've learned at least as much as I've shared since I've been here.

Also, I have been keen on the idea of a Caveman Wiki for quite a while now - an encyclopaedia of cavemen related topics that can updated by any registered user.  Anyone in favour of it?

A "CavemanPower" or ""Primal Lifestlye" Wiki would be awesome.

[Elysium]

Two things not mentioned here that I've seen argued against in other paleo circles regarding dairy but not mentioned here:

1. Casein
2. Betacellulin

Take a look at this 5 part blog post (link is to part 1):
http://www.modernforager.com/blog/2008/05/08/milk-does-it-do-a-body-good-part-1-calcium-and-osteoporosis/

(Note I drink raw milk that I get straight from the dairy in return for my helping milk the cows one norning a week)

Regards,
Craig.

[Abe]

I have read that pasteurization kills lactase, which is present in raw milk.  Therefore, if lactose-intolerant people can drink milk in it's "natural" form, because the milk provides it's own lactase, what's not to love? 

I've been drinking raw milk for a year, and I firmly believe that if our caveman ancestors had had a convenient way to access this excellent food, they would have.

[Lone_woLf]

rule #1: Your body is never wrong.

rule #2: In the event that you suspect your body is wrong, see rule #1.

The whole premise of this site is 'be true to your biology'. The point is paleolithic peoples didn't have regular access to milk, if any at all. Just because some populations held unto their lactase or starved to death, doesn't mean it's good for us. We weren't drinking it when we got up on two legs, or when we began to use tools, or when our brains were growing. No point in allowing a neolithic f00d on your site, Matt, the lesser of the evils is still an evil.

rant complete

I propose we take a page from Ray Audette's Book and, if you want to know if your body tolerates a food, abstain completely from it for three months, and then try it and see if there is any reaction. That is the only way to know and it is different for every person.

I think Steve Pavlina may have experienced his tolerances when he went on a extremely low-fat raw food diet for 30 days. It was fruits and veggies, and only fruits and veggies.
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/01/raw-food-diet-day-30/
Read this to see what he was doing and then click on 'day 31' for when he returns to his normal vegan diet--have an icepack ready; it's a real forehead-slapper!

[Matt Emery]

I propose we take a page from Ray Audette's Book and, if you want to know if your body tolerates a food, abstain completely from it for three months, and then try it and see if there is any reaction.

Good point... after I abstain from dairy for a while, my stomach curdles violently when I consume it.

[xs10cl]

I assume when you speak of "milk" you refer to cow's milk.  Point being, we are the ONLY species that continues to drink the milk of another
species after we've been weaned.  Yes, we aren't birds but we've figured out how to fly nonetheless.  But drinking milk is just not natural for
"man", clearly shown by the history of our bodies' revolt to it.  Further, milk causes not only allergic reactions in many, but milk, cheese, and
dairy byproducts cause mucus, phlegm, and general malaise, probably also because most people consume SO MUCH of it on a daily basis!  And
do remember: when we drink the milk of animals that are daily stressed from their inhumane living conditions [cows produce milk from being
artificially inseminated, and then are immediately torn from their babies], we get milk that is full of the hormone laden foods and injections
given to those cows to over-produce, etc.   Its a nasty cycle, best avoided by thinking, caring human beings.  Amen.

[Tobias]

if you want to know if your body tolerates a food, abstain completely from it for three months, and then try it and see if there is any reaction.

This is a very interesting concept, to which I will put an argument;

Abstaining from meat for protracted periods of time, as one dose if they become vegetarian or vegan, as i have been, renders one unable to consume any form of animal protein. Your body stops producing the needed enzymes, and it takes time to "teach" your body to once again digest meet. I myself am still loathe to consume any large quantities of red meat due in part to the changes in my metabolism.

This relates to your test of abstinence as such, either the premise is false and our body adjusts its self to suite its diet, or we as humans are not truly fit to process meat.

[Tobias]

I find myself much in agreement with the supporters of milk, that is if taken from the appropriate source and processed in a Wise manour.

In the first sense, from whence you obtain milk maters greatly, and if we are to argue it is beneficial to and accommodated by our modern bodies, i would argue against cows milk in favor of that of goats as it is far more easily digested and metabolized by the human body. The digestion times between the two can differ by hours, goats milk taking perhaps twenty minutes and cows milk taking up to several hours (this dose differ by bread, both of animal and human).

As its has been mentioned briefly in this thread, raw milk is far superior to pasteurized milk, high temperatures destroy not only the highly beneficial enzymes but the majority of the nutrients and delicate fats. One could also hardly consider themselves adherent to a primitive diet if one is consuming anything pasteurized, for when would it have any of our paleolithic ancestors to high pressure boil their consumeables?

Also i would like to point out an interesting subject that this thread has broaced, the concept of paleo diet and living is not doctrine to be strictly held to. Yes, our ancestors went about their lives in better form then we do now, remarkable so, but modern man and the life he leads is not so terrible as to be utterly shunned and ignored, from housing to clothing to medicine and yes even to diet we have ares of improvement, pro-biotics and herbal/Vitamin supplements are just two of many examples i can give of this.

Your thoughts?

[BigKhanz]

The whole premise of this site is 'be true to your biology'. The point is paleolithic peoples didn't have regular access to milk, if any at all. Just because some populations held unto their lactase or starved to death, doesn't mean it's good for us. We weren't drinking it when we got up on two legs, or when we began to use tools, or when our brains were growing. No point in allowing a neolithic f00d on your site, Matt, the lesser of the evils is still an evil.

Not really seeing an agument against dairy here... Just some ranting about it being bad, and no reasonings as to why.

And do remember: when we drink the milk of animals that are daily stressed from their inhumane living conditions [cows produce milk from being
artificially inseminated, and then are immediately torn from their babies], we get milk that is full of the hormone laden foods and injections
given to those cows to over-produce, etc.   Its a nasty cycle, best avoided by thinking, caring human beings.  Amen.

This is a moral argument, not a biological one. I grew up on a "modern" farm and we always cared for the animals that made our living.

I propose we take a page from Ray Audette's Book and, if you want to know if your body tolerates a food, abstain completely from it for three months, and then try it and see if there is any reaction. That is the only way to know and it is different for every person.

I've had to give up dairy and fresh foods for prolonged periods several times in my life because of my time in the military, and I've never had a problem.

[Tulsa]

I use milk but only raw milk. If I can't get raw, I don't use it.

[muladzh]

The logical argument against milk is very simple - true it is mammal food, by definition, but it is BABY food, not adult animal food, so why on earth assume you can consume it. It is designed to make babies grow properly - it ceases to do that with adult animals, so all except humans don't drink it.

[SallyisRad]

I have Almond milk.... YUM!

[HanaBlossom]

The logical argument against milk is very simple - true it is mammal food, by definition, but it is BABY food, not adult animal food, so why on earth assume you can consume it. It is designed to make babies grow properly - it ceases to do that with adult animals, so all except humans don't drink it.

This is pretty much my thinking at the moment. Yes, we drank milk, but HUMAN milk, and as BABIES. I'm not sure if we are evolved enough to drink it and use it properly... if we are, then why not grains, too?? Theser are serious questions. I'm still figuring it all out. But I've always thought it kinda strange to drink other animal's baby food once we are weaned off of ours. There are many countries that are super, super healthy (most asian ones I'm thinking) and they barely eat or drink dairy at all. I just find it strange, is all.

[MrWinchell]

I myself have found cutting dairy out of my diet to be very positive. I no longer have gas on a daily basis. This result is enough for me to avoid dairy from now on as I feel so much better without it.

[Tony Bondioli]

It is my belief that people who have trouble with dairy are often just consuming the "wrong" kind of dairy.  To wit...

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/01/mark-mcafee-interview.aspx

[COMA]

One of the things I have learneds while living this way is that my body seems to do better without milk and that is really all I need in order to convince me not to drink it. There is another positve that makes it even better not to drink milk though an that is all the mpney that I save. It is a win/win situation in my opinion.

[senach]

I must admit that i still hold a fondness to human breast milk,availability is a bit of a problem though.

[houmax]

My allergies(seasonal) are a lot less severe since I've become dairy free. That's a big plus for me.

[back2basic]

Been a hard topic, guessing one of the biggest apart from meat!
 Thought id chuck a few of my thoughts on the fire n see what happens.
I have not had milk in my diet for 4 years after being attached at the teet, i have tried cheese and the occasional cream bun, bit hard not too really, they always are very felt inside and i can tolerate it, but im sure deep in my heart its a toxic to my energy.
 I also had prior to my change, really strange sinus problems, obviously due to mucus and bad diet, which left shortly after stopping dairy, plus meat, but also adding loads of fresh live food.
  I feel we are debating this topic so greatly due for a need to change, maybe to evolve as many are suggesting we are doing massively as we speak, which will bring forth a new age.
 I am studying food from more on a level of spiritual energy, chi, prana which has lead me into a new take on life and our energy bodies.
 there is alot of information on the living energy of food and its energy field (aura) we all have it surrounding us, and we all know that the fresher the food the better it tastes, smells, digests etc.