Greetings astute traveller, this website now exists for historical reasons.

Much has been learned since 2006. I urge you to keep exploring the evolution of information through other websites.

Poll

Did humans evolve from apes, or did an intelligent entity create us?

We evolved from apes.
44 (66.7%)
A higher being created us.
20 (30.3%)
This is blasphemy!
2 (3%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: Creationism Vs Evolution  (Read 87307 times)

Offline Matt Emery

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Creationism Vs Evolution
« on: May 28, 2007, 07:42:38 AM »
The gloves are off... so cast your vote, have your say and let the shrapnel fly!
"Be true to your biology"

Offline Sass

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2007, 08:28:02 PM »
Gee you're likely to rouse the rabble on this one huh.

Well my opinion is that there is a higher power, that we are part of that power and that we are created in these life times to experience life.

As for the apes, well there is that evolutionary aspect to consider as well isn't there.

There is reportedly scientific evidence (created by humans) to suggest that we (in our current form) have evolved from apes.

It is possible that we (in primate state) are created and then evolved to where we are today.  To strike out either one may limit the future exploration of who we are.  Who we are is of course the primary question which starts us to think about creation and evolution.

In the end though, it should all be taken into consideration as there has not been difinitive proof answering and proclaming to an absolute Who we are.  How we got here, where we came from, etc. 

Faith of course will create conflicts in some minds as they may see that this scientific stream of thinking hacks away at their particular faith and in turn their faith in themselves as being right.  This way of thinking has limitations too, putting barriers around possible avenues of thought, exploration and discovery.

Anyway guys, just thought I would put my thoughts down.

Cheers,

Sass ;)

Offline Matt Emery

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2007, 12:56:16 AM »
oh Sass!  I knew you'd bite  ;D

Attached is an interesting article on critical thinking, it expands on this topic very nicely.  It's a very good read.
"Be true to your biology"

Offline viking

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2007, 10:19:07 AM »
hey, i'm the first to download the article!
good bit there on critical thinking. 
As a brand new visitor to the site, its important that I create a good first impression.  for some of you, too bad; I believe creationism has more merit than evo.  :) 
Sure, there are things I can't answer.  yet.  but analyzing new discoveries is part of the fun.

Offline Matt Emery

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2007, 06:30:16 PM »
hey, i'm the first to download the article!
good bit there on critical thinking. 

Welcome Viking, thanks for your input and i'm glad you enjoyed the article.

Cheers,
Matt
"Be true to your biology"

Offline cave_girl1702

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2007, 10:56:49 PM »
Hmmm, how about a higher power enabling the evolution from apes into intelligent talking human beings?

Offline Matt Emery

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2007, 12:43:56 AM »
Hmmm, how about a higher power enabling the evolution from apes into intelligent talking human beings?

Yep, it's certainly possible.  Would you like to expand on that?

PS Welcome along cave_girl (great name)  :)
"Be true to your biology"

Offline cave_girl1702

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2007, 09:17:19 PM »
Creationalism seems to be something that the majority of the world believes in – to some extent whether they know it or not. When something bad happens what is the first thing we will say? “Oh God”, “How could he let this happen?”, “What have I done to deserve this?”. I hear this from non believers all of the time, and I ask myself and them – why do you blame God when you aren’t a believer in Him? There is often no answer given.

If a higher power created human beings – then life is simple. We live, we serve, we do as is planned for us by God himself (or whoever your higher power is). If we are derived from Apes, what meaning would our lives hold? We would have to seek that answer for ourselves and that would make life hard and not simple. Who wants a life that is full of hard work trying to find our purpose in life? Only a select few.

I personally believe in a higher power somewhere along the line. I feel that God enables us to continue to evolve be it through animalistic ways or in scientific ways. He is there to allow us to continue to grow – mentally & physically.

Animalistically we have a lot of similarities which is why I feel that we did evolve from Apes over many years. Animals choose a mate so that their offspring will be genetically superior to themselves. It is scientifically proven that Humans do this too by way of pheromones. It is no coincidence that we see or smell a man or woman walking towards us and are instantly attracted to them and think of ‘mating’. The smell of someone can be so appealing to one person and so offensive to another. Pheromones are a way of our subconscious telling us that our offspring will be genetically superior should we be together.

Humans to me are definitely animalistic and came to be by way of evolution – however, I just don’t think that it is solely our environment that has enabled this evolution to occur.

Offline Matt Emery

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2007, 10:35:07 PM »
Quote
Creationalism seems to be something that the majority of the world believes in – to some extent whether they know it or not. When something bad happens what is the first thing we will say? “Oh God”, “How could he let this happen?”, “What have I done to deserve this?”. I hear this from non believers all of the time, and I ask myself and them – why do you blame God when you aren’t a believer in Him? There is often no answer given.

I'm not sure of the majority of the world believes in Creationism.  Check out this link http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Religion_importance.PNG
Those selective believers (pluralists) you speak of are one group only, and are what I call "victims".  They would probably blame anything for their problems, given the chance.  I don't see how they support your theory.

Quote
If a higher power created human beings – then life is simple. We live, we serve, we do as is planned for us by God himself (or whoever your higher power is). If we are derived from Apes, what meaning would our lives hold? We would have to seek that answer for ourselves and that would make life hard and not simple. Who wants a life that is full of hard work trying to find our purpose in life? Only a select few.

If somebody chooses to believe in something because it is comfortable, does that not make them part of the first group of people you spoke of?  Because it's the same principle; being selective about beliefs based upon subjective desires, as opposed to facts.

Quote
I personally believe in a higher power somewhere along the line. I feel that God enables us to continue to evolve be it through animalistic ways or in scientific ways. He is there to allow us to continue to grow – mentally & physically.

Therein lies the premise of all faith - it's a tenet that cannot be falsified.  Hence, it is just as accurate for me to say that "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" allows us to grow.  Both beliefs are simultaneously valid because they cannot be proven to be wrong, yet they are both equally invalid because they cannot be proven to be correct.

Quote
Humans to me are definitely animalistic and came to be by way of evolution – however, I just don’t think that it is solely our environment that has enabled this evolution to occur.
Nobody has satisfactorily proven this, or it's contra-argument - so there's a 50% chance that you are correct about this :)
"Be true to your biology"

Offline cave_girl1702

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2007, 11:40:24 PM »
So, I looked at the link. And I see the words "Percentage of citizens who consider religion 'very important'". Now, I am sitting here writing to you about creationalism and evolution when really I would class myself as someone who believes that religion isn't "very important". However, I do have a religion - I just dont take it to the ultimate level like those in the maroon section. I meant to say before that on a subconcious level these people you call "victims" do take advantage of the fact that they may not be to blame and can easily blame God for their troubles. I do not believe in this - I am simply saying that people who claim to be believers or non believers in God are very quick to jump at the thought of blaming Him for their misfortunes or mistakes. So to 'support my theory' I say that subconciously people want there to be a God or Higher Power.

Quote
If somebody chooses to believe in something because it is comfortable, does that not make them part of the first group of people you spoke of?  Because it's the same principle; being selective about beliefs based upon subjective desires, as opposed to facts.

There are no facts in religion when you look closely at it are there? It is all stories passed down, told or written. However, what I was saying is that if God miracally created us and put us on this earth then we are humans and that is that. If, however, we evolutionised we need to ask ourselves where will humans be in a million years? How far will we have evolved by then. And, what do we need to do today to continue the evolution process?

As for "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" lets spread that story around and in 2,000 years we can see how many people believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster allowing us to grow. Who knows, it may be true as you say, we are unable to prove the theory wrong.

My last point was just purely my own thoughts which of course are unable to be proven.

Offline Matt Emery

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2007, 01:37:45 AM »
Quote
So to 'support my theory' I say that subconciously people want there to be a God or Higher Power.
Agreed.  Good point.

Quote
There are no facts in religion when you look closely at it are there?
Exactly.

Quote
As for "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" lets spread that story around and in 2,000 years we can see how many people believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster allowing us to grow.
That's a scary thought! lol

Quote
My last point was just purely my own thoughts which of course are unable to be proven.
True or false - either way they certainly provide for a good conversation!

Quote
And, what do we need to do today to continue the evolution process?
Breed  :D
"Be true to your biology"

Offline NiemandWeiss

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2007, 08:01:48 AM »
Hi all. I am a new user and old friend of Foxy's. Anyway here I go with my first post wooo.

I am agnostic so naturally I believe in evolution. I like being able to see it in action in nature but I also like the idea of being evolved rather then created by some being. The idea of being evolved is pretty cool. I mean natural suggestion suggests that we are products of millions of years of trial and error.  Its can fill you with pride and yet be humbling at the same time because the process is never ending and who is to say in a million years we will still be here. Perhaps we will be replaced.

So yeah thats my two cents.

Devin McAfee

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2008, 12:24:38 PM »
Personally I believe in both but I marked "we evolved from apes". My brain is far too small to even comprehend how the universe started and how everything in existence began. So I, like most people, state that a supreme being (God) created everything in existence. But to go as far as to say that it all started with Adam & Eve is a little much. I believe "God" created the universe and the laws surrounding it and the rest is history.

Therefore, I believe we started as some little organisms that slowly evolved and evolved until we became what we are today. It just seems to make a little more sense.

Offline BigKhanz

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2008, 06:09:54 PM »
What about "intelligent design". Most of the replies seem to lean in that  direction anyway, and it is, in essence, both choices.
Guys like me aren't born this way, actually we're not born at all. We're hatched from vulture eggs left in the sun, then raised by Wolves...

Offline Phanatic

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2008, 10:13:08 PM »
I'm not necessarily closed to the idea that a higher being created  life, I just don't think it handed out rule books to earthly representatives (if it exists).

Offline narco

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 05:39:13 AM »
Evolution is a testable theory that has survived over 150 years of scientific study, it can be proven wrong by contradictory evidence, but has not been so far.

Creationism/intelligent design can not be scientifically tested because there is no test or hard evidence to prove or disprove that there is a god/higher power, it is all subjective. 

 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 02:04:52 AM by narco »

Offline Scott

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2008, 05:34:50 AM »
I could not Vote for either alternative as I believe that both are right, I know it sounds like a foot in the mouth kind of statement, but my particular religion supports both Science and Myth. And no I am not a Scinetologist.

The very first Myth in my religion, shows Ice and Fire combining into a space "Heat Friction= Big Bang"  and the "Cold, i.e Ice melted into Water" Which birthed to Gods whom flept fourth from primal materials "Single Cell Organism" and then this same set of gods creating other Gods by Cell separation. Eventually making it's way down to us.

Just read the Voluspa in the Norse Myth goes hand and hand with Creationism, Science and Evolution.
The All-Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer. Your fate is fixed. Fear profits a man nothing.

Offline Tony Bondioli

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2008, 01:13:04 PM »
...Ice and Fire...

Hail and well-met, brother.   8)
RN, B.Sc. Health Promotion and Wellness. Public Health Nurse serving a Great Lakes Native American tribe. Husband and father. Lousy at cards, but with a fair singing voice. Good to have around when the excrement hits the rotating cooling apparatus.

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Offline Lone_woLf

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2009, 08:46:38 PM »
I'm an environmentalist with a minor in Biology and so I can tell you that there is much more humility in the biological sciences than there are in the physical sciences -- or religion, for that matter. There are no 'laws' in biology; there is no such thing as the 'law of evolution', they are all theories and nothing is ever proven.

As for creationism and intelligent design, in the language of Biology they are at best hypotheses: an opinion that hasn't been {read: can't be} tested. If it could be tested, they would test it; and if it did turn out to be as plausible as the evolutionary theory then, and only then, would they rewrite the textbooks adding creationism as a competing theory.

And, no, a biologist having a conversation with God wouldn't be submittable as evidence.

What about carbon dating and all of those fossils? Can a rational person explain to me how this evidence has other explanations besides evolution? I have to admit that I stopped listening after the blowhards started arguing that carbon dating is an illusion and the dinosaur bones were put there by the devil to trick us and tempt us away from God's word.  (the squeaky wheel fallacy successfully executed)
:D

Besides...

Quote
"'God created the Earth in seven days.' A foolish brag, I feel." -- Eddie Izzard

Because of the either/or format of the poll, I didn't vote as my beliefs actually do lie in that pesky gray area. Because it is untestable, I have some beliefs of my own on creation. Like the snake eating its own tail, creator and creation happened at the same time because they are pretty much the same thing. No idea is a new idea, they are always based on earlier ideas. Evolution follows the same path. And the entity of God(dess) was created by man because 'existence' wasn't very user-friendly. But being contrived doesn't diminish the value of deity, it is simply whatever one desires in a concentrated form that one can relate to. Assimilation is futile; deity is different for every person, even if a group of people get together and all call it by the same name.

So there you go, the religion of Lone_woLfieism. You can buy my book on ebay its called
Holy $#!+: Manifesto of a Lone_woLf.

 ::)
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn’t serve the world. There’s nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It’s not just in some of us; it’s in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we’re liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

--Marianne Williamson

Offline Tony Bondioli

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2009, 07:27:11 AM »
Here's an excerpt from a Newsarama interview with Grant Morrison, author of the epic, 12-part mini-series, "All Star Superman," in which he neatly sums up his (and my own) thoughts on the subject of religion.  Enjoy, or be offended... whatever makes you think.  --Tony
 
NRAMA: On a personal level, you've explored all types of religions and philosophies in your work.  What is your take on religion and how it influences humanity, and the Christian take on Jesus Christ in particular?
 
GM: I think religion per se, is a ghastly blight on the progress of the human species towards the stars.  At the same time, it, or something like it, has been an undeniable source of comfort, meaning and hope for the majority of poor bastards who have ever lived on Earth, so I'm not trying to write it off completely. I just wish that more people were educated to a standard where they could understand what religion is and how it works. Yes, it got us through the night for a while, but ultimately, it's one of those ugly, stupid arse–over–backwards things we could probably do without now, here on the Planet of the Apes.
 
Religion is to spirituality what porn is to sex. It's what the Hollywood 3–act story template is to real creative writing.
 
Religion creates a structure which places "special," privileged people (priests) between ordinary people and the divine, as if there could even be any separation: as if every moment, every thought, every action was not already an expression of  dynamic 'divinity" at work.
 
As I've said before, the solid world is just the part of heaven we're  privileged to touch and play with. You don't need a priest or a holy man to talk to "god" on your behalf just close your eyes and say hello: "god" is no more, no less, than the sum total of all matter, all energy, all consciousness, as experienced or conceptualized from a timeless perspective where everything ever seems to present all at once. "God" is in everything, all the time and can be found there by looking carefully. The entire universe, including the scary, evil bits, is a thought "God" is thinking, right now.
 
As far as I can figure it out from my own reading and my own experience of how the spiritual world works, Jesus was, as they say, way cool: a man who achieved a state of consciousness, which nowadays would get him a diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy (in the days of the Emperor Tiberius, he was crucified for his ideas, today he'd be laughed at, mocked or medicated).
 
This "holistic" mode of consciousness (which Luthor experiences briefly at the end of All Star Superman) announces itself as a heartbreaking connection, a oneness, with everything that exists...but you don't have to be Superman to know what that feeling is like. There are a ton of meditation techniques which can take you to this place. I don't see it as anything supernatural or religious, in fact, I think it's nothing more than a developmental level of human consciousness, like the ability to see perspective – which children of 4 cannot do but children of 6 can.
 
Everyone who's familiar with this upgrade will tell you the same thing: it feels as if "alien" or "angelic" voices – far more intelligent, coherent and kindly than the voices you normally hear in your head – are explaining the structure of time and space and your place in it.

This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with "God."  However, given that this totality must logically include and resolve all possible thoughts and concepts, it can also be interpreted as an actual encounter with God, so I'm not here to give anyone a hard time over interpretation.
 
Some people have the experience and believe the God of their particular culture has chosen them personally to have a chat with. These people may become born–again Christians, fundamentalist Muslims, devotees of Shiva, or misunderstood lunatics.

Some "contactees" interpret the voices they hear erroneously as communications from an otherworldly, alien intelligence, hence the proliferation of "abduction" accounts in recent decades, which share most of their basic details with similar accounts, from earlier centuries, of people being taken away by "fairies" or "little people".
 
Some, who like to describe themselves as magicians, will recognize the "alien" voice as the "Holy Guardian Angel".
 
In timeless, spaceless consciousness, the singular human mind blurs into a direct experience of the totality of all consciousness that has ever been or will ever be. It feels like talking with God but I see that as an aspect of science, not religion.
 
As Peter Barnes wrote in "The Ruling Class", "I know I must be God because when I pray to Him, I find I'm talking to myself."

(Which leads me to this famous quote.  --Tony):

"I teach you the superman. Man has something that shall be overcome.  What have you done to overcome him?  All beings so far have created something far beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man?  What is the ape to man?  A laughing stock or a painful embarassment.  And man shall be just that for the superman: a laughing stock or a painful embarassment." --Fredrich Nietzsche

Nothing 'racist' about this statement, in my opinion, although it is often misinterpreted as such.  I believe it points more toward the sort of spiritual evolution discussed by Morrison.  --Tony
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 07:44:02 AM by Tony Bondioli »
RN, B.Sc. Health Promotion and Wellness. Public Health Nurse serving a Great Lakes Native American tribe. Husband and father. Lousy at cards, but with a fair singing voice. Good to have around when the excrement hits the rotating cooling apparatus.

"I worshipped dead men for their strength, forgetting I was strong."  (Vita Sackville-West)

“I'm not a prophet or a stone aged man, just a mortal with the potential of a superman. I'm living on.”  (David Bowie)

"Man fears the beast within the wolf, because he does not understand the beast within himself."  (Turtle Island Alphabet)

"Seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek the things they sought."  (Basho)

"[Primal man] is of the soil... he fits into the landscape, for the hand that fashioned the continent also fashioned the man for his surroundings."  (paraphrasing Luther Standing Bear)

Offline MrWinchell

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2010, 05:57:21 PM »
Faith is blind for if it could see it would not exsist at all.
"Those who give up freedom for security, deserve neither"--Ben Franklin

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius

He who makes a beast of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man. -- Samuel Johnson

Offline Doug

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2010, 12:09:49 PM »
The idea I most wish to contest is that those who believe in creationism somehow do so asc a matter of faith without any evidence.  If that were the case then the evidence would not be worth discussing.  Creationists strongest evidence is that there is more order to the universe than can be accounted for by natural processes.  Stated differently, design demands a designer.  Nobody has ever explained to me if we found a machine on Mars that we would think there was intelligent life there.  Yet, plant and animal life  on earth is exponentially more complex than any machines we have created and there is a tremendous resistance to the idea that something more complex does not require intelligent life to create it. I will, concede, however, that creation does not satisfy our intellectual curiosity.   To  say God did it does not tell us when God did it,  or how God did it.   I know some try and reconcile evolution with creation by saying evolution is the tool God used to get us to this point.  The problem is that answer really doesn't satisfy because we still are unable to answer how evolution works.   As someone one said, description is not explanation.   

None of us has lived around long enough to see the beginning.  None will live long enough to reproduce the thry e universe in a laboratory to see if we can recreate life.   The best we can do is look for clues in the here and now.  We may disagree, but my hope is that  consider the evidence is not as clear cut  as they may believe.



Offline Tony Bondioli

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2010, 01:01:22 PM »
'god' is no more, no less, than the sum total of all matter, all energy, all consciousness, as experienced or conceptualized from a timeless perspective where everything ever seems to present all at once. 'God' is in everything, all the time and can be found there by looking carefully...

There is hard evidence, both concrete and theoretical, supporting the premise of evolution.  There is no hard evidence, either concrete or theoretical, supporting the premise of "creation," at least not as it is commonly regarded in traditional religious contexts.  What many choose to call "god" is, in my opinion, all that did, does, and will ever exist, (including "you" and "me") in the context of time as it truly occurs (all at once, rather than in a linear fashion).  It is not inaccurate to say, then, that "god" is evolving right along with the rest of us.  It would be even more accurate to say that the aspects or parts of "god" that we are, are evolving, and that the evolution that has and continues to occur on this one little planet (and undoubtedly on countless others) is an aspect of the very evolution of "god."
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 01:04:40 PM by Tony Bondioli »
RN, B.Sc. Health Promotion and Wellness. Public Health Nurse serving a Great Lakes Native American tribe. Husband and father. Lousy at cards, but with a fair singing voice. Good to have around when the excrement hits the rotating cooling apparatus.

"I worshipped dead men for their strength, forgetting I was strong."  (Vita Sackville-West)

“I'm not a prophet or a stone aged man, just a mortal with the potential of a superman. I'm living on.”  (David Bowie)

"Man fears the beast within the wolf, because he does not understand the beast within himself."  (Turtle Island Alphabet)

"Seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek the things they sought."  (Basho)

"[Primal man] is of the soil... he fits into the landscape, for the hand that fashioned the continent also fashioned the man for his surroundings."  (paraphrasing Luther Standing Bear)

Offline Doug

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2010, 02:47:22 AM »
I read Matt Emmery's byline here:  "The goves are off".  So, with that in mind here goes.  But I just don't want to argue for the sake of argument.  My hope hope is to make this interesting as well.  Let me say,  being in the minority doesn't bother me.  Most of us here are in the minority eating this diet. That does not deter us because we have enough person knowledge  adherer to our beliefs.   The real question iis not personal knowledge, but what is the actual evidence?

I found a site which supports creation, but also has some interesting articles about neanderthals.   So in keeping with our caveman them, and without further ado, check out  the link below if you have a moment:

http://www.reasons.org/evolution/neanderthals

Offline Tony Bondioli

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Re: Creationism Vs Evolution
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2010, 11:52:25 AM »
With all due respect to your religious convictions, Doug, the information presented on the website to which you linked is, at best, junk science, and at worst, just one more attempt by "religion" at holding humanity back from realizing its fullest potential.  Here is a little snippet from their statement regarding what they believe:

"We believe the Bible (the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) is the Word of God, written. As a "God-breathed" revelation, it is thus verbally inspired and completely without error (historically, scientifically, morally, and spiritually) in its original writings."

Hm.  Guess that doesn't leave much room for intellectual debate, now does it?  (even on the off-chance that one could persuade them to actually study--and admit to the truth regarding--the history of their own belief system, i.e., mythologies stolen from earlier cultures, scriptures customized and repeatedly altered to suit the particular political agendas of various eras and locales, the forced conversion or annihilation of entire populations, etc.)

I fully endorse author Harlan Ellison's statement, that "religion is the last vestige of human barbarism."  I am appalled by the efforts of religious institutions to bury the best evidence-based information modern science has to offer regarding evolution and the origins of life in the universe and on our planet.  The "creationist" way of thinking served a purpose once, long ago, when primitive humans were still struggling to understand where they came from, but it--like religion in general--has outlived its usefulness.  It is time for us to take the good that has come from our religious origins (basic morals, values, ethics...) and leave the superstitions and dogma in the past, where they belong.
RN, B.Sc. Health Promotion and Wellness. Public Health Nurse serving a Great Lakes Native American tribe. Husband and father. Lousy at cards, but with a fair singing voice. Good to have around when the excrement hits the rotating cooling apparatus.

"I worshipped dead men for their strength, forgetting I was strong."  (Vita Sackville-West)

“I'm not a prophet or a stone aged man, just a mortal with the potential of a superman. I'm living on.”  (David Bowie)

"Man fears the beast within the wolf, because he does not understand the beast within himself."  (Turtle Island Alphabet)

"Seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek the things they sought."  (Basho)

"[Primal man] is of the soil... he fits into the landscape, for the hand that fashioned the continent also fashioned the man for his surroundings."  (paraphrasing Luther Standing Bear)