Science Vs Faith

[Matt Emery]

[cave_girl1702]

I love these flow charts! To me they are hillariously accurate. It really angers me when someone tries to insist that their way of thinking is the right way. No one person has the right way in my mind. That one person only has the right way for themselves.

Take for instance the JW's that door knock ALL OF THE TIME. One day, I thought to myself (seeing as I didnt have a job at the time) the next lot that come here, I will ask them in for a cup of tea. So I did. This went really well. They gave me their information, and I listened. I was making a couple of notes as we were talking, and they thought this was absolutely wonderful! Wow, they have someone to convert. Then, I began to tell them my views on the information they had passed on to me, all I received was a horrified look. I have never seen someone leave my house so quickly.

To me, that meeting clearly justifies the "faith" side of these flow charts. I would love it if people just kept an opened mind, and were able to listen to someone else's theories no matter what they are regarding. Everyone has a different view, deal with it.

[Matt Emery]

I love these flow charts! To me they are hillariously accurate. It really angers me when someone tries to insist that their way of thinking is the right way. No one person has the right way in my mind. That one person only has the right way for themselves.

That's what I love about Critical Thinking - it's evidence based.  Check out this article http://www.cavemanpower.com/forum/creationism_vs_evolution-t14.0.html;msg41#msg41

[viking]

If science (as a whole) really worked that way, things like evolution or 'gravitons' would have never made it past the drawing board.  human nature gets in the way - if you step out of the realm of popular science, you get blacklisted.  thus, keeping a job becomes more important than truth.
no offense matt, but the whole 'science v faith' thing is a paper lion.  lets not rehash that whole thing over the internet, people, let me just encourage y'all to take that 'critical thinking' article to heart-   its not perfect, but hey, its a pretty good litmus test.


Cave-girl, I get the same result (or lack) talking to Mormons.  or to my agnostic neighbors.  They get these ideas in their heads, and refuse to listen to evidence to the contrary.   What do you do?  Its THAT point where faith comes in - I begin believing that their hearts will soften enough to hear the truth.  Get it?

[Asaahi]

Hey Matt, I agree with most all your posts on this website. Though I will say, I never get why people always think Science and Religion have to contend. I don't see why people can't just follow through with what they like, and as for the rest, respect it for what it is. By the way I'm not a follower of any religion so I'm not bashing anyone here. But yeah, I think each person should just keep a balance of what they find to be meaningful to them. That's just my opinion... 

If that's exactly what was intended by the post, then ignore what I said.

Cheers

[Matt Emery]

Hey Matt, I agree with most all your posts on this website. Though I will say, I never get why people always think Science and Religion have to contend.

I don't think they have to contend, but by definition they will, because one is evidence based whilst the other is not.

Faith, on the other hand, is an essential utility for human survival, I wish it was treated with more respect - especially by religious institutions.

[Phanatic]

Faith is good to have, faith in yourself, faith in your own abilities. Optimism about yourself and your ability to overcome. I don't feel the need for faith in a God, to change things I should be changing myself. Not nocking religious people - plenty of people I know are religious and good people.

[Matt Emery]

I don't feel the need for faith in a God, to change things I should be changing myself. Not nocking religious people - plenty of people I know are religious and good people.

I agree, and I do not wish to attack religious folk, even though I do have certain assertions about the validity of their ideology.

I think religion does help a lot of people, and it has indeed helped me in the past.  In some ways I am grateful for it, and in other ways, I am incredibly interested in it's viral inertia, and why people connect with it in such a fundamental way, it's quite a fascinating topic... definitely worth exploring.

[Asaahi]

Faith, on the other hand, is an essential utility for human survival, I wish it was treated with more respect - especially by religious institutions.

Definitely true. Damn, I have so much to think about...
So much on my plate and I don't know where to start. I'm hoping to get some "soul searching" done this summer.

[Doug]

I  like Matt's candor.  Even though I disagree with his conclusions about faith I can understand why he might come to the conclusions he does about religion.  I think many things in religion are pure bunkum.  It is possible, however, to have faith without sacrificing your mind. In fact, faith without using your mind is pretty worthless in my opinion.  Most people get in trouble when they think of faith as some mysterious idea that is teflon proof from anything that rubs against it.  When people say they have faith it is important to understand what they mean when they make this claim.  I use the word trust often to mean the same thing. We can say we trust gravity. Or we can say we trust that the lights will go on.  This is trust in a physical law.  That trust is pretty constant.  If we say we trust in God, we don't mean exactly the same thing.  If you believe God has a personality then trust in God is similar to trust in a person.  A person has the choice of keeping your trust or not keeping your trust. And even if the person is still on your side, that  does not mean whatever  we ask will be given.  A child may ask for fire to play with but a parent may not give it to the child because the parent knows it is not good for the child. The parent still loves the child and denial of the child's request ought not to diminish the child's faith in the parent's love for the child.  Hint- think about why religious people talk about a heavenly father. 

[SidheDraoi]

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/rational_spirituality/101114/1


I found this interview online and have read the authors books... in his book "the God part of the Brain" he theorizes and states evidence for a neurological link between science and faith. This book has honestly changed my entire perspective on the world. Its a MUST read for anyone in both the religious and scientific community (as it pertains to both in a positive way).

 

[MrWinchell]

I just purchased a copy of the book on line. I will let you know what I think of it when I finish the book.

[Tony Bondioli]

In the interview mentioned above, the author raises some interesting points.  Those of you who have read some of my "anti-religious" comments might be surprised to learn that my inclination is to disagree with his position, that perceived spiritual experience is the result of neurological processes.  Rather, it is my belief that the physical brain reacts neurophysiologically to the genuine spiritual experience.  This statement is not an endorsement of religion--in fact, I believe religion does more to stifle authentic spirituality than to enhance it--but does reflect my "metaphysical rationalist" belief in a multi-dimensional reality that exceeds the four dimensions we can readily perceive (length, width, depth, and time).  In the words of Dannion Brinkley, "We aren't human beings, having an occassional spiritual experience.  We are spiritual beings having a human experience."

[SidheDraoi]

I just purchased a copy of the book on line. I will let you know what I think of it when I finish the book.

I look forward to hearing from you regarding it! I don't know of many people who have read this book, perhaps we could share our experiences?

[Rob-The-Spartan]

There are so many faiths that this question is incomplete. Science Vs. which faith? Vs. Christians? Atheists? Satanic worshipers? lol do you see my point? Even belif in science is a faith in some sense.

[Tony Bondioli]

There are so many faiths that this question is incomplete. Science Vs. which faith? Vs. Christians? Atheists? Satanic worshipers? lol do you see my point? Even belif in science is a faith in some sense.

Scientific beliefs are supported by evidence.  Religious beliefs are held despite the lack of evidence.

[Rob-The-Spartan]

There are so many faiths that this question is incomplete. Science Vs. which faith? Vs. Christians? Atheists? Satanic worshipers? lol do you see my point? Even belif in science is a faith in some sense.

Scientific beliefs are supported by evidence.  Religious beliefs are held despite the lack of evidence.

Faith is one of the most humanistic traits. Until science recognizes this trait, it will be incomplete. And religion does operate on facts too. And how many times has science been wrong? how many times have they said things like "carrots are good for you" and then a year later they say they're bad for you? it operaties on facts? hardly... it operates on things that it believes to be facts. Whether they're factual or not is only known by God (if you believe in Him) but certainly now known by any humans. Our minds can only create so much. We are wrong when it comes to understanding the universe so much. Religion operates on the same principles really. And they're both flawed belief systems in my experience. I think thta until they both recognize and respect one another, both will be incomplete and insufficient because they are both so closely related... They just don't know it yet... or they do and choose to ignore it

[Tony Bondioli]

it operaties on facts? hardly... it operates on things that it believes to be facts.

I didn't say science operates on "facts," but that scientific beliefs (theories) are based on evidence.  I agree that science is fallible.  When new or better evidence comes along, theories change.  This is how it should be.  This is exactly what doesn't happen in the context of religion (when new or better evidence comes along, old beliefs are clung to tenaciously, despite the evidence that they cannot be true).  One of my favorite examples of this is the biblical story of Noah's ark.  The world is full of otherwise intelligent people who actually, literally believe that this story is true, exactly as it is written in the bible, despite the fact that it isn't even remotely possible.

I agree with the sentiment that, in order for humanity to continue evolving toward its ultimate potential, a merging of science and spirituality needs to occur.  Sadly, religion is still such an entrenched aspect of human behavior that true, authentic spirituality has been unable to really blossom.  The truth is that dogmatic religion does more to repress the development of real spirituality than does science.  Good science... exploring, questioning, discovering science... encourages the true development of authentic spirituality.

[Rob-The-Spartan]

The point that i'm really trying to get accross is this: Science is always changing. New technologies are being invented every day. And in 50 years, they will look back on some of the things we are so certain about and laugh at how silly they are. Science is never in a place to tell anybody they're wrong about anything because their opinions are ALWAYS formulated on scientific research. If science says, Noah's arc is impossible, what they mean is: according to my research, that is not physically possible. if in 50 years, your methods of research differ, so will the results. Remember, there was a time when science said the earth was flat. It was a globally accepted fact. Now look. They said it was impossible to go to outer space... now look.

On the other hand, i have found from personal experience that there are 2 different kinds of religious folk. One is people who "believe" in a chosen religion because in some way, they are scared not to. Usually this happens when they are brought up in a religious household or go to church from a young age. This is NOT the way to be. If you are only siding with something because you are afraid of what might happen if you don't... how strong is your faith, really? Because now you are believing in something purely for personal gain and losing sight of the whole religion altogether. The other type of religious folk are just like the kind of people who are on here. They simply believe in a religion that hasn't been invented yet. We are the spiritual, self-loving, self-improving childen that the Bible speaks of.

One last point, the Bible has been edited by Roman Emperors in order to give the emperor more power. Also, the rules in there about only loving one man or woman was put in there by a King so that he could keep all of the women in haems aso he could choose one to mate with whenever he wated and every other man only got one woman. 

My conclusion: religion is merely another person's (or in the case of the Bible, many people's) beliefs written down that you choose to follow. Faith is finding a personal connection with God and the universe and finding yourself and happiness... having your own belief.

[Rob-The-Spartan]

Oh and one other thing to consider: if a man walked around and told people he could hear God talking to him and that everybody needed to follow him... he'd be thrown in a loony bin. If you believe in that sort of thing, imagine how many more prophets have been locked away.

Oh and Moses was recorded visciously murdering people. Yeah... after he got his people to safety, they murdered all of the people in the surrounding areas so they wouldn't be bothered ever again. Read between the lines people...

[MrWinchell]

there was a time when science said the earth was flat. It was a globally accepted fact.

Just because a large number of people accept a scientific theory it does not make it a fact.  A fact is always present even if the evidence to support it has not been discovered.

Fact - A concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific and religious hypotheses are not facts"

As for human spirituality and God. I theorize they are both just a coping mechanism. Most people can not handle the idea that this life may be all there is. No real reason or meaning. Nothing that makes us different or superior to any other life form in this universe. I think our intelligence not only allows us to perceive our own inevitable fate but it also allows us to delude ourselves to deal with it. The facts may not be known but they are out there waiting to be discovered. Until then we will keep theorizing and deluding ourselves to fill the void of these unanswered questions. This need will be what drives us to keep searching until we find the facts that provide the truth. Of course.... that is if we manage to evade extinction  

[SidheDraoi]

there was a time when science said the earth was flat. It was a globally accepted fact.

Just because a large number of people accept a scientific theory it does not make it a fact.  A fact is always present even if the evidence to support it has not been discovered.

Fact - A concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific and religious hypotheses are not facts"

As for human spirituality and God. I theorize they are both just a coping mechanism. Most people can not handle the idea that this life may be all there is. No real reason or meaning. Nothing that makes us different or superior to any other life form in this universe. I think our intelligence not only allows us to perceive our own inevitable fate but it also allows us to delude ourselves to deal with it. The facts may not be known but they are out there waiting to be discovered. Until then we will keep theorizing and deluding ourselves to fill the void of these unanswered questions. This need will be what drives us to keep searching until we find the facts that provide the truth. Of course.... that is if we manage to evade extinction  

that book I was talking about a while back,  "The God Part of the Brain" explains this!! It makes a lot of sense to me that the human brain would have a part that controls the level of a persons spirituality/religious behavior. and you are right, it is an adaptation thing. Humans depend on life to have some sort of meaning, without meaning then we feel hopeless.

[MrWinchell]

Humans depend on life to have some sort of meaning, without meaning then we feel hopeless.

This is what I find strange. Why does life have to have a meaning? Let's imagine for a moment that we had proof that there was no consciousness beyond this life. Would that really change anything? Many people believe that only humans have "SOULS" and the rest of the life on this planet just dies. If this is the case is it not more tragic when a non human animal loses its life? I would rationalize that the life without a soul is more valuable being the only life it will ever have. I would go so far as to say that there is no loss in death and no meaning in life if you are just to be reborn again. Life would be as pointless as dieing in a video game. (Oops I'm dead. Its a good thing I have infinite lives)

I would like to offer up a simple but effective example.
(Lets imagine that cars were free so they have no physical worth just practical)
If you were given a car and you knew it was the only car you were ever going to own would you not take great care of it? Conversely if you were given a new car every time the previous car could no longer operate would you service it regularly?

 

[SidheDraoi]

That has crossed my mind before, and it does make a lot of sense. I think I can say I 100% agree with you.

[Bellator]

We are no more important than a blade of grass or even a rock.

I find it funny that humans actually believe they are something special compared to the rest of life. It's all in the mind.