Antidepressants and Psychiatric Treatment?

[Asaahi]

Hey just a quick question for you guys. Lately I've been thinking about some issues regarding my moods and depression. It's been going on for years and I'm beginning to feel like throwing in the towel and asking for medical help. I've always been hesitant about pharmaceuticals for mental health, because I don't wanna twist my view on reality or "numb" myself emotionally. Also, I'm afraid of the long term side effects.

So what's your guys' take on these things. You think I should hang in there, or is there benefits in taking medication?

Thanks, I didn't know who else to ask a question like this. Most of us nowadays think all our answers come from a pill......  Including me

[Matt Emery]

Do it!  See a therapist and get informed.  A smart caveman would use all resources available for his/her health and well being! 

Sometimes science (namely, pharmaceuticals) can be a good friend.  I realise that there is some stigma around anti-depressants, anti-psychotics etc... but used wisely, they can be a valuable tool.  I know people who've used anti-depressants to help them through lengthy ordeals, and it was a very positive experience for them.  Taking pills or doing therapy does not have to be permanent, in fact, it rarely is.

Lets face it, in this extraordinary society, sometimes extraordinary measures are required.  So be smart and go see what help is out there; and remember, it's the adaptable that survive, not the stubborn.

[Toby]

HERE'S THE BEST ADVICE I CAN GIVE:

DO NOT TAKE PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS.  They only mask symptoms and do not cure anything.  Side effects are horrendous, and even if you initially "feel better," the long-term effects of these drugs include (depending on what drug) weight gain, diabetes, cardiovascular difficulties, sexual dysfunction, violence, suicide and many more others.

PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS CAN CAUSE DEPENDENCY.  Most people have a terrible time getting off of psychiatric drugs because of the withdrawal symptoms, where your original symptoms come back much worse than you had them before. Some have major side effects such as "brain zaps" in the case of Paxil.

MOST MENTAL PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY AN UNDERLYING PHYSICAL ILLNESS.  See your doctor and get a full battery of tests to find out if you are suffering from an undiagnosed physical illness that can actually be tested for (psychiatric disorders can't be).  This could be as simple as a poor diet, anemia, allergies and so on. 

On top of this, if you let an underlying illness go on too long without addressing it, you could significantly exacerbate that condition.  Find out if you have such an illness and handle it now.  True medical illnesses can be tested for and found to exist by lab test, blood work, etc.

EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN UNDERLYING PHYSICAL ILLNESS, THERE ARE VERY GOOD NONDRUG OPTIONS.  Psych drugs are simply not an option, no matter what people say. 

Unfortunately, we live in a world informed almost exclusively by drug commercials and corrupt medical organizations massively funded (and ultimately bought off) by Big Pharma, where only pro-drug apologists live. 

You're far better off seeing an alternative health care practitioner, finding the root of your problem, and working out a solution. 

Please don't take psychotropic drugs.   I have seen too many horror stories of people on these meds than I care to enumerate.

[Phanatic]

As someone who's had a mentally ill (schizophrenic) brother, allow me to chip in. The drugs he was on, probably diazepam or something like that, didn't "cure" his mental illness. He was still very much nervous and stressed, and paranoid, but they did lower his energy a ton and help him spend the day on his bed. Numb, like you say.

I suppose with depression it's different. My father had a tough time dealing with his moods when he got cancer, and his SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) helped him through it a lot. Be careful with them though if that's what you choose, as Toby said they have a variety of side effects and CAN cause dependency. I don't know that mental problems are mostly caused by physical illness, but you ought to TRY the nutritional side at least.

My advice on nutrition: There are amino acids you can take that your body will use to create DOPAMINE, and SEROTONIN, neurotransmitters responsible for moods.

L-Phenylalanine  - converted into tyrosine which turns into noradrenaline and dopamine
L-Tyrosine         - turns into noradrenaline and dopamine
L-tryptophan      - precursor to the neurotransmitter serotonin along with B6, niacin, and magnesium.
Also OMEGA 3s may have a mood stabilising effect.

Make sure you're not on a high carbohydrate diet - don't ride the insulin wave. It'll take you up, then take you down, reduce your energy and make you lethargic. Many people switching to a fat and protein based diet notice that their moods are more regular and constant. You might also try natural testosterone boosters like tribulus to give yourself some more confidence and feel better etc.

[Matt Emery]

Welcome to the forum Toby.

DO NOT TAKE PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS.

That's quite a strong statement there, and it's one that I disagree with.

I have personally witnessed people who've used pharmaceuticals as a temporary measure to get them through extraordinary ordeals.  Those people thought long and hard about there decision to use psych-drugs, and they approached the problem intelligently and responsibly.  For them, it was the smart choice.

I've also witnessed people who were close to suicide (and possibly homicide), and the psych-drugs were a sweet mercy for them... buying them enough time to get some therapy and medical analysis.... in other words; to go forward.

MOST MENTAL PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY AN UNDERLYING PHYSICAL ILLNESS.

Neurological disorders are a physical illness.

Asaahi, I think you owe it to yourself to get the best treatment possible, even if that includes the short-medium term use of drugs.  I've seen what happens when people are stubborn about this, it's terribly sad.

I'd certainly take a cautious approach (as iterated by Toby), but I wouldn't be stubborn about it.

As I said before, be smart.

[Toby]

With all due respect, Matt, we'll have to agree to disagree here.

There is no psychiatric "disorder" that has been shown to be a neurological illness (such as a lesion or brain tumor).  Nor is there any brain scan, blood test or X-ray that can show the existence of a mental problem.  From this, one must conclude that the problem is not medical in nature and thus will not be cured by a medicine.

In other words, neurology depends upon provable illnesses that can be measured and tested for. If it cannot be found by lab test, then it isn't a disease.  In psychiatry, anything can be called a "disorder" and treated -- nowadays almost exclusively with drugs.

That being said, your point about suicidal people being "saved" by a psychiatric drug may or may not be true.  Everyone reacts differently to psychiatric drugs.  According to the drug companies' own literature, antidepressants double the rate of suicidality -- Paxil by 6.7 times.  And yet a recent meta analysis by Dr. Irving Kirsch in England of all drug studies (published and unpublished) shows that the positive effects of psychiatric drugs are statistically no greater than placebo. 

So basically, almost all of the positive result of psych drugs is the placebo effect -- and these drugs come with severe short and long-term side effects.

However, Matt, you are quite right.  Psychiatric drugs are legal in this country, and as an informed adult, you have a right to take them.  But know what you are getting into.

Do exhaust all possible options before taking them.  At best, they are a Band-Aid. At worst.. well, you know...

This has been an interesting and very civil thread.  Thank you.

[Matt Emery]

With all due respect, Matt, we'll have to agree to disagree here.

I respectfully accept. Thoughtful debate and rational discourse are always welcome here 

There is no psychiatric "disorder" that has been shown to be a neurological illness (such as a lesion or brain tumor).  Nor is there any brain scan, blood test or X-ray that can show the existence of a mental problem.  From this, one must conclude that the problem is not medical in nature and thus will not be cured by a medicine.

This is correct, I am not disputing that.  I was/am asserting that Neurological Disorders (not Psychiatric Disorders) are not only physical in nature, they are also related to mental problems.

I am painfully aware that there is very little that neurologists can do to detect psychiatric disorders, although they are slowly joining the dots (psychosis, schizophrenia, dementia).  From a scientific point of view I agree whole heartedly with you - and i'm equally sceptical towards pharmaceuticals and psychiatry (as i've stated in other topics), but... they can in fact help to assuage the symptoms a suffering individual - caveat emptor of course.

Unfortunately, it sometimes boils down to a triage decision; do we let the person suffer and possibly harm themselves and possibly others, or do we allow them access to dopamine regulators etc.  It's not an optimal choice, but sometimes it is a productive one.

Do exhaust all possible options before taking them.  At best, they are a Band-Aid. At worst.. well, you know...

In my opinion, I believe this to be a rational direction to take.

Furthermore, thanks for the excellent post.  I hope to hear more from you.

[BigKhanz]

I just got in the tale end of this thread, but I'm gonna agree with Matt on this. Depression is an illness. So are Anxiety and chronic rage. I know this because I suffered through them myself. I refused treatment or meds for a long time until I had reality shoved in my face after I put SEVEN people in the hospital with broken bones and head injuries. I nearly killed myself after that, but through PROPER treatment and TEMPORARY medications I was able to overcome and return to a healthy lifestyle.

Think about this, a 6'4 275lb MMA fighter and hand-to-hand instructor for a US SpecOps unit having Anxiety Induced Rage Episodes. It scares me to think of what could have happened if I hadn't sucked it up ad got help.

And before anyone throws the Paleo card here, remember that Native Americans and caveman believed that the LIVER was responsible for "thinking". We still don't know for sure how the brain works but we work with what we have.

[Tony Bondioli]

Think about this, a 6'4 275lb MMA fighter and hand-to-hand instructor for a US SpecOps unit having Anxiety Induced Rage Episodes.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and state that the character of Brock Samson (from Venture Bros.) was loosely based on Big Khanz.  I'm glad you're on our side, big guy.   

Seriously though, I fully agree with Matt and BK on this, and can also speak from personal experience.  Depression is a mental illness, and those who suffer from it can certainly benefit from the proper, temporary use of antidepressant medications and good psychotherapy or counseling.  Although I've never personally used antidepressant medicine, I have had good results with both Sam-E and St. John's Wort.  Just be sure to check out possible drug interactions before using any herbal treatments.

[Toby]

Again, I have to remind everyone that we are talking about "science" here, not consensus or opinion about what constitutes a medical illness.  Opinion, as we know, has no place in pure science.

The logic goes as follows:

Because you cannot prove the existence of any kind of pathogen, lesion or tumor as the basis of an unwanted mental condition, you cannot claim it is a "medical illness."  Therefore because all psychiatric disorders are arrived at by consensus rather than concrete medical test and tabulation (and yes, psychiatrists do form committees and vote mental illnesses into the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual), they also cannot properly be called "medical diseases."

Fifty years of pharmaceutical PR has led a lot of people into believing that certain unwanted conditions are "diseases," when they most certainly cannot fit the proper definition.

No one is arguing that depression, rage, mood swings and so on are not unwanted psychological problems, especially when chronic.

However, to then make the leap and say that these are "diseases" that can be treated with a "medicine" is untenable. 

On top of this, the "medicine" prescribed is never claimed to cure, only "manage" these problems -- and it comes with severe short-term side effects for some, and because it is systemic (or, go to all parts of your body -- your liver, heart, etc.) it comes with very severe long-term side effects for everyone.

Nor am I disputing that anyone here didn't feel better after taking a psychotropic drug.  But don't lose sight of the fact that you are taking a mind-altering drug.  Anyone would feel better after drinking a cocktail or snorting cocaine, but I wouldn't call it "medication"!

I love the Caveman philosophy as I've seen on this website, but on this antidepressant issue everyone should check their emotions at the door and take a long hard look at the logic from a purely scientific point of view, rather than believe the age-old propaganda that we all have heard for years and years throughout the media that comes, in fact, from those parties benefiting from selling psychotopic drugs. 

I have been around too many people not to know that these drugs are very dangerous.

[BigKhanz]

So in your view, an unexplained coma, seizure, infertility, illnesses or infant death(all of which are suprisingly common) which has no known scientific basis, is a matter of opinion?  Is that what your saying? It's the same logic. Just because the cause of a disorder, illness, or sickness isn't known you say it isn't a "medical disease"? Or does this logic only apply to certain kinds of illness?

Now what if there is a chemical imbalance that can be measured and treated with pharmaceutical anti-psyhcotics that restore proper brain chemistry(human baseline) is that okay? Or is it still the same as doing coke?

This the wikipedia definition of a disease: "A disease is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions and can be deadly. It is also defined as a way of the body harming itself in an abnormal way,[1] associated with specific symptoms and signs.[2][3] In human beings,"disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes extreme pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, and/or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person. In this broader sense, it sometimes includes injuries, disabilities, disorders, syndromes, infections, isolated symptoms, deviant behaviors, and atypical variations of structure and function, while in other contexts and for other purposes these may be considered distinguishable categories"

check their emotions at the door and take a long hard look at the logic from a purely scientific point of view, rather than believe the age-old propaganda that we all have heard for years and years throughout the media that comes, in fact, from those parties benefiting from selling psychotopic drugs

Show me any science what so ever that isn't rooted in your personal opinion or anecdotal evidence to support your view. Until then all you have is purely emotional anti-psychiatric rhetoric.

[Tony Bondioli]

Because you cannot prove the existence of any kind of pathogen, lesion or tumor as the basis of an unwanted mental condition, you cannot claim it is a "medical illness."

Many illnesses, both physical and psychological, result from reasons other than pathogens, lesions, or tumors.  Biochemical/ hormonal imbalances lie at the root of myriad "dis-eases," including forms of mental illness.

...to then make the leap and say that these are "diseases" that can be treated with a "medicine" is untenable.

Many forms of mental illness can be effectively treated using antipsychotic/ antidepressant medications, and/ or complementary, herbal remedies, especially when used in conjunction with proper counseling or psychotherapy.

...it comes with very severe long-term side effects for everyone.

This statement is just inaccurate and unsubstantiated.  Many people have taken medication for mental illness as prescribed for, essentially, their entire lives, and have suffered no physical ill effects.  Most medications are metabolized by the liver and excreted by the kidneys, and have a relatively short half-life.  An otherwise healthy body is usually able to handle a prescribed dose without any trouble.

...don't lose sight of the fact that you are taking a mind-altering drug.  Anyone would feel better after drinking a cocktail or snorting cocaine, but I wouldn't call it "medication"!

Most people drinking cocktails and snorting cocaine don't call it "medication," either.  Then again, they aren't typically using these substances for medical purposes, under the supervision of a physician or psychiatrist.  On the other hand, I also believe that the moderate use of some mind-altering substances can be healthy under the right circumstances.  Our world's primitive peoples did--and still do--tend to feel the same way.

...on this antidepressant issue everyone should check their emotions at the door and take a long hard look at the logic from a purely scientific point of view, rather than believe the age-old propaganda that we all have heard for years and years throughout the media that comes, in fact, from those parties benefiting from selling psychotopic drugs.

I agree.  However, I don't believe that every statement supporting the proper use of antipsychotic/ antidepressant medication necessarily constitutes "propaganda."  Of course the pharmaceutical companies are going to try to sell as much of their product as possible.  Does this mean that all of their products are without merit?  I think not. 

I have been around too many people not to know that these drugs are very dangerous.

I have been around too many people to know that these drugs can improve the quality of--or outright save--people's lives.

[Matt Emery]

on this antidepressant issue everyone should check their emotions at the door and take a long hard look at the logic from a purely scientific point of view, rather than believe the age-old propaganda that we all have heard for years and years throughout the media that comes, in fact, from those parties benefiting from selling psychotopic drugs. 

When I witness a loved one on the brink of killing themselves (or others), it's human (instinctual) to offer them the most effective means of help possible - but that does not automatically mean that I think that drugs are perfect, nor does it mean that I would dismiss the possibility of negative side effects, and it certainly doesn't mean that I classify mental illness as a medical condition or any other type of condition.

My decision to help is largely motivated by emotion, but my strategy for help is is based on ration and reason...  I wish for a better solution, but alas; it's not available yet.

I agree that patients can be exploited by marketeers (Big Pharma).  But I won't fall for an ad hominem argument that says drugs are bad because they're sold by profiteers... which only raises a question, not a conclusion.   I have reached certain conclusions based on observations and research, and I found that "drugs can help certain people cope with distress, and the pros can outweigh the cons".

[BigKhanz]

Hit the nail on the head there Matt.

Oh, and I love the reference Tony, but they suspended my lisence...

[Lone_woLf]

I'm not a doctor but I do have some experience with this -- depression and anxiety.  Have a regular sleep schedule, eat healthy and most importantly EXERCISE every day for a half hour at least. Talk out your problems or get a journal. If you find that these things are too difficult or are not enough then you may need to get medicine to get you going or remedy a persistent chemical imbalance. (If your symptoms are severe, thoughts of hurting yourself or others or you've stopped eating or don't want to ever get out of bed, you should see a doctor as soon as possible).

All anti-depressants work differently, you shouldn't feel numb on them, if you do then ask your doctor to put you on a different medicine.

It won't drastically alter your perception, on the contrary, it will make it easier to be yourself. I'm interested in all of the things I was interested in before *and more*, and when I meet my doctor half-way by doing the above I have the energy to pursue these interests.

And, no I didn't turn into a sheeple. If anything, I'm more of a pain in the ass than I was before    because I'm not afraid. If an anxious thought arises, instead of being driven to distraction by it, I can bat it away more carelessly than I would a fly and continue with what I was doing -- and (unlike flies) they stay away. This has made social situations 1000% easier for me.

Because of my family history of alcoholism, there may be a chemical imbalance at the root of this and I had been anxious and depressed like this for most of my life (I can remember being this way as a child) before I sought an MD's help. In about a year or so, with my doctor's knowledge, (when I'm solidly following the diet and am at least 40#'s+ lighter) I'm going to reduce and stop the medicine and find out. I consider this medicine a crutch (until my body tells me otherwise) to help me to do what I should have been doing, and thinking and emoting, in the first place.

[Matt Emery]

Good advice, Thanks for sharing Lone_woLf 

This has made social situations 1000% easier for me.

Good to hear you're attacking the issue head on... you have my respect 

[AskTheNanny]

Taurine 2400 mg and magnesium citrate 400 mg three times a day

[Wyldkat]

Have a regular sleep schedule, eat healthy and most importantly EXERCISE every day for a half hour at least. Talk out your problems or get a journal. If you find that these things are too difficult or are not enough then you may need to get medicine to get you going or remedy a persistent chemical imbalance. (If your symptoms are severe, thoughts of hurting yourself or others or you've stopped eating or don't want to ever get out of bed, you should see a doctor as soon as possible).

All anti-depressants work differently, you shouldn't feel numb on them, if you do then ask your doctor to put you on a different medicine.

It won't drastically alter your perception, on the contrary, it will make it easier to be yourself. I'm interested in all of the things I was interested in before *and more*, and when I meet my doctor half-way by doing the above I have the energy to pursue these interests.

And, no I didn't turn into a sheeple. If anything, I'm more of a pain in the ass than I was before    because I'm not afraid. If an anxious thought arises, instead of being driven to distraction by it, I can bat it away more carelessly than I would a fly and continue with what I was doing -- and (unlike flies) they stay away. This has made social situations 1000% easier for me.

All of that bears repeating. 

I've been struggling with depression and anxiety for a good portion of my life.  I have been on several medications, a few of them long term (as in several years straight).  Some of them do have nasty side effects, BUT a word to your doctor will get you switched if anything is going wrong (two of the meds I tried).  None of the meds I was on caused weight gain, most modern meds don't.

If it is a problem in your life on a daily or almost daily basis, if it has lasted for longer than two weeks, if it is not linked to a recent traumatic life event there is a very good chance it is caused by a chemical imbalance in your brain.  That does not mean you HAVE to take meds.  Any good doctor will first try to get you into talk therapy of some kind and push a good exercise program (at least 30 min a day).  If they don't talk about those options first (unless you are currently suicidal), talk to another doctor.

In addition, most good doctors will also bring up fish oil supplementation, sleep patterns and diet, all of which can have a dramatic affect on mood.

Holy Basil is also a good supplement for depression and anxiety.  Cannabis can work for some people as well (please check the legality of it in your area).

I've currently been off prescription meds for about 3/4 of a year under careful supervision by my doctor.  I am using herbal supplements on an as needed basis and am doing very well, however I can tell you that if it wasn't for the prescription meds I would very literally be dead right now.  To anyone who reads this, DON'T wait until you get to the point of thinking about ending it to look for help.

[zenrn]

Because you cannot prove the existence of any kind of pathogen, lesion or tumor as the basis of an unwanted mental condition, you cannot claim it is a "medical illness."

Many illnesses, both physical and psychological, result from reasons other than pathogens, lesions, or tumors.  Biochemical/ hormonal imbalances lie at the root of myriad "dis-eases," including forms of mental illness.

...to then make the leap and say that these are "diseases" that can be treated with a "medicine" is untenable.

Many forms of mental illness can be effectively treated using antipsychotic/ antidepressant medications, and/ or complementary, herbal remedies, especially when used in conjunction with proper counseling or psychotherapy.

...it comes with very severe long-term side effects for everyone.

This statement is just inaccurate and unsubstantiated.  Many people have taken medication for mental illness as prescribed for, essentially, their entire lives, and have suffered no physical ill effects.  Most medications are metabolized by the liver and excreted by the kidneys, and have a relatively short half-life.  An otherwise healthy body is usually able to handle a prescribed dose without any trouble.

...don't lose sight of the fact that you are taking a mind-altering drug.  Anyone would feel better after drinking a cocktail or snorting cocaine, but I wouldn't call it "medication"!

Most people drinking cocktails and snorting cocaine don't call it "medication," either.  Then again, they aren't typically using these substances for medical purposes, under the supervision of a physician or psychiatrist.  On the other hand, I also believe that the moderate use of some mind-altering substances can be healthy under the right circumstances.  Our world's primitive peoples did--and still do--tend to feel the same way.

...on this antidepressant issue everyone should check their emotions at the door and take a long hard look at the logic from a purely scientific point of view, rather than believe the age-old propaganda that we all have heard for years and years throughout the media that comes, in fact, from those parties benefiting from selling psychotopic drugs.

I agree.  However, I don't believe that every statement supporting the proper use of antipsychotic/ antidepressant medication necessarily constitutes "propaganda."  Of course the pharmaceutical companies are going to try to sell as much of their product as possible.  Does this mean that all of their products are without merit?  I think not. 

I have been around too many people not to know that these drugs are very dangerous.

I have been around too many people to know that these drugs can improve the quality of--or outright save--people's lives.

Well put Tony!